Cardiologist by Accident

00:00:00: Yeah, it was quite a journey spending about eight years in the US.

00:00:03: You wouldn't believe that I wasn't even wanted to go through my bachelor degree and used to play football like no you have to get your degrees first started with engineering.

00:00:13: school name was mistakenly placed in medical school but i got My First Warning for It Was Fascinating.

00:00:20: But You Need Someone To Tell You Oh My God!

00:00:23: The Journey In The U.S..was

00:00:26: Tell us a little

00:00:31: bit more.

00:00:53: Welcome back to Dubai.

00:00:54: Dog Story, a skill in a series where we speak with healthcare professionals whose career go beyond one country.

00:01:02: One title!

00:01:03: One traditional path.

00:01:05: Today's guest is Dr.

00:01:07: Eshan Abdul Rahman Habib, cardiology consultant clinical pharmacist and academic leader A head of pharmacy practice department in Tayyip University, Saudi Arabia.

00:01:21: His journey began in Saudi Arabia continued through advanced education and clinical training in the United States, including Prickham and Women's Hospital.

00:01:34: And eventually brought him back to Saudi Arabia.

00:01:37: What I find particularly interesting is not what he has achieved that is extraordinary yes but his decisions behind it The journey thats connected with that and what motivates him To leave.

00:01:52: actually Saudi Arabia and why he returned, that's most important.

00:01:59: And now very warm welcome and I'm very happy to pick your brain Dr.

00:02:04: Eshan and see what is actually the transformation you are bringing or seeing in their healthcare system in Saudi Arabia?

00:02:14: Very happy to have you here.

00:02:16: Thank You Dr.

00:02:16: Angela.

00:02:16: The pleasure of all mine such a pleasure to be around To get connected with people like yourself.

00:02:25: Thank you for the introduction.

00:02:27: So yeah, it was quite a journey.

00:02:29: when I would... When you mentioned now looking back to my bachelor degree Back in Saudi then moving all the way spending about eight years In The US between Florida and Boston totally different environments where i come from Everything is Different!

00:02:44: The weather Is Different!

00:02:45: I mean especially the Weather You know?

00:02:48: I'm From Medina Which Usually Reach A Heat Of fifties, forty-fives, fiftys in like the middle of summer.

00:02:55: So moving to Boston which is completely opposite was quite a transformation.

00:03:00: so it goes beyond just getting the knowledge and goes way beyond connecting with people over there networking with these different you know kind of environments really shaped as mentioned shape lot decisions.

00:03:13: I think now when i look back at I

00:03:17: would like to know and start not only with your CV, but what is actually on your life path so far.

00:03:25: And when you were younger?

00:03:27: What has motivated you to start anyway with the subject of medicine?

00:03:33: Yeah Oh my God!

00:03:34: This takes me... I told ya that's it.

00:03:36: oh my god You wouldn't believe it.

00:03:39: i wasn't even wanted doing to do my bachelor degree.

00:03:44: I used to play football professionally, so that was a completely different bath.

00:03:49: but my mom hello if you're seeing this... My Mom had that mindset like no!

00:03:57: If you want to play Football You have to get your degrees first.

00:04:00: at least you have to give your Bachelor's Degree and the opportunities when it comes to Football..you can't just control them say No i'm gonna stay here until finish my degree.

00:04:11: I said, okay.

00:04:11: I'm gonna put that on hold and go get whatever degree you want me to get.

00:04:16: So i started with engineering school not even medical school.

00:04:21: I spent there about a month-and-a half And then back then way in the days they didn't have obviously much electronics when it comes to recording.

00:04:32: so everything was brought into writing.

00:04:34: My name is mistakenly placed in Medical School even though I was attending engineering school.

00:04:42: For about a month and half until i got my first warning for b-for missing classes, uh huh!

00:04:47: And I was like...I never miss the class.

00:04:48: what's going on?

00:04:49: How come I get a warning from missing classes than being

00:04:52: absent?!

00:04:53: So I went back to review this with student affairs.

00:04:57: they told me..what are you doing over there?

00:04:59: your name is listed in the medical field or medical training at that time.

00:05:07: Now it's been a month and half.

00:05:08: So what should I do?

00:05:09: They said, well you can apply next semester And You Can cancel out this semester or you can go back because we're not gonna change your name.

00:05:16: Your your listed here.

00:05:17: Okay so either withdraw Or just go figure It Out.

00:05:22: Well i'm Not Gonna Go Back For Sure Uh, and it tells you that's a lot of decision.

00:05:29: As you said in our life we have no control over.

00:05:32: It just comes to You.

00:05:33: That's destiny right?

00:05:34: Exactly!

00:05:35: It literally was a destiny.

00:05:36: And my mind at that time I was like okay i'm Just gonna finish this semester.

00:05:40: its only about A month or two months left so im just Gonna Finish it call it day.

00:05:45: Then go back To either engineering Or Go play football.

00:05:48: So that Was My plan At the Time But interestingly Slowly, you know enjoying that field.

00:05:56: and I was like You know what?

00:05:58: It's not about studying.

00:06:00: I want to read more about this.

00:06:01: i wanna know More About This.

00:06:02: Wow And at That Time Also My Father Had Some Cardiac Issue so So I Used To go With Him To The Hospital Seeing All These Doctors Coming From the US At That time Because I Was Way Back In The Days And We Didn't Have A Lot Of Physician Who Like Performed This Kind of Cardiac Surgery Procedure.

00:06:21: so it Was Fascinating to go and meet all these health care providers from different sectors coming out of the US, Saudi to perform this kind of procedures.

00:06:34: And you know I was with my father at that time getting new medications.

00:06:38: starting medication he's still taking until today really made me fall in love with those medications wanting more about them.

00:06:47: just start reading more about it.

00:06:49: eventually i became good in classes and therapeutics, and all these classes.

00:06:53: that relates because I think it affected my father.

00:06:57: And that's the mindset I always bring to my students, my interns, my resident whoever is working with me like look do not think about anything other than let's... Let's talk about your parents for example.

00:07:09: so For tomorrow when you are in practice imagine all the patients You have.

00:07:14: they're either your father or mom Your son?

00:07:16: Your daughter.

00:07:17: So that's the mindset you want to have.

00:07:19: It is not about a degree, it isn't about a title...it goes beyond!

00:07:22: This will affect your home and I think this mindset took me to where I'm standing right now.

00:07:29: Wow,

00:07:29: thank you for sharing that and it just stands on me what kind of pathway is this?

00:07:34: I always say children's souls are choosing the parents actually very consciously.

00:07:40: yeah your soul have already chosen a father with problem.

00:07:45: he needs to have cured And give you the pathway.

00:07:49: enter at university courses That you need For having a pathway Where also feel fulfilled.

00:07:57: It's very interesting.

00:08:00: You mentioned already that you had seen so many physicians in your time of study and... Can you please explain a little bit what motivated you to go in the end, uh...to America.

00:08:15: And you mentioned earlier eight years even so Please take us on the journey.

00:08:20: What were the motivations behind it and biggest highlights?

00:08:24: What shapes your medical doings really still today?

00:08:29: So I'm very curious how was your biggest ahas In america?

00:08:34: Yeah,

00:08:35: so I think it still connects to the story with a passion.

00:08:39: Because of the passion i had about that field because my father was taking all these medications and i have no idea what they're doing for him And everyone toes out

00:08:53: It's really small printed right?

00:08:54: You need a magnifier

00:08:57: So maybe you can reach out to the manufacturing companies Literally reading everything just to make sure you know, what's going on with him?

00:09:06: Is he changing because it was a major procedure that he had.

00:09:11: and So I think the passion took me or led me to be one of the student who can apply for a scholarship.

00:09:19: And literally When i think back about it.

00:09:23: I see thousands not hundred thousand students Who are way better than me when I was a student.

00:09:28: so I always tell them Never think about like, oh I can't do it.

00:09:33: If i was able to do It?

00:09:34: I'm pretty sure you will Do it even better than me Obviously.

00:09:37: that's all after the guidance from God as we say.

00:09:46: So one of my professor at That time.

00:09:53: He always used to tell me do not just go the regular bath way you have what it takes.

00:09:57: and I think that's the second part.

00:09:59: What we need?

00:09:59: We need to hear from these people, their advisor or your mentors.

00:10:05: Just a little bit

00:10:06: reflection

00:10:08: Yes because if you look back at yourself now You feel like Dr.

00:10:13: Angela, you haven't learned anything?

00:10:15: You're still like trying to figure it out but you need someone to tell you oh my god!

00:10:19: You did this...you do that...wow..that's amazing.

00:10:21: We

00:10:21: can see our own shadows right?

00:10:24: Exactly so.

00:10:25: I'm always grateful for that professor who now is my colleague and we work together.

00:10:29: he used to be my teacher.

00:10:32: uh-huh He was always pushing me.

00:10:37: no ...you shouldn't do the regular bathway.

00:10:39: take all the way, go... I know no one before.

00:10:42: you went to the US.

00:10:43: It's not an easy bath but what it takes blah blah blah.

00:10:46: and i think that motivation with a passion.. I said okay!

00:10:52: I'll try to do this.

00:10:54: It is a passion for me.

00:10:55: You think I have what it took.

00:10:57: so even didn't believe in myself at that time.

00:11:00: So ok Time forward ..I got my scholarship I went to the

00:11:05: U.S.,

00:11:06: got my acceptance, got my degree... The degree that i was looking for-the reason why i went to u.s.. Was not provided in Saudi at that time.

00:11:13: Ah interesting!

00:11:14: What exactly did you agree with?

00:11:15: So so you have get doctor of pharmacy first.

00:11:19: uh huh You can't get your license To practice it in the US.

00:11:22: Okay Uh so then you apply for a match which means the residency match.

00:11:27: So after you get your residency, you'll get your specialized residency.

00:11:30: then you'd get your fellowship and there are so many different schools in the US that provides these.

00:11:35: uh they do have it maybe not with that aspect as compared to the U.S.. That was way back in the days!

00:11:46: When we go to the u.s obviously the practice... These programs I've been there for about eighty years or ninety years compared to Saudi at that time was almost about five years.

00:11:56: So I wanted to change the practice where i'm from, I want it to improve health care.

00:12:01: yes

00:12:02: so that was a place to go too.

00:12:04: wow

00:12:05: and That was my mindset before even going like...I always think of university sponsorship committee who gave me all these opportunities to go.. I alway thinking of them as like my father.

00:12:16: These are my fathers.

00:12:18: They spend this money on me.

00:12:20: I'm not just gonna go leave them.

00:12:22: I have to go back, i must come back!

00:12:24: I know it's not the same... The practice is NOT THE

00:12:26: SAME!!

00:12:27: It will take time to change but eventually IT WILL

00:12:29: CHANGE!!!

00:12:30: And if every people are just leaving and they're staying there because of the practices better than what's going to happen with your father?

00:12:37: The one who paid for you and sponsored you and did pretty much everything for

00:12:41: YOU?!

00:12:42: So that was my mindset before I left.

00:12:44: So I knew its only a matter of time that I will go back.

00:12:48: We'll get all the knowledge, but eventually we have to go

00:12:51: back.".

00:13:09: tribute the value to my country, right?

00:13:11: So this is something so beautiful.

00:13:13: Thank

00:13:14: you totally.

00:13:14: I mean it's only fair when you think about it.

00:13:18: uh...so The journey in the US was

00:13:22: tell us a little bit more.

00:13:24: i wanted To first know When You compare the Arabic or the Saudi healthcare market This system what Was the most significant difference to the USA and through their American systems.

00:13:39: Because I know from my work with doctors that the Middle East is strongly orientated on the American system, so would you just share with us two or three peak views?

00:13:53: What's the major difference in the whole healthcare

00:13:57: industry?".

00:14:00: Huge obviously, but if I have to put it like in a very small nutshell.

00:14:04: I would say the team working.

00:14:06: So the US is heavily team-based working.

00:14:09: so you don't see a physician by himself deciding or A nurse doing whatever she wants with the patient or a pharmacist Deciding what medication is better for that?

00:14:19: For their patient not even the patient himself Like lift out.

00:14:23: even the patient has to decide within among the team.

00:14:26: so that I would say That's the major difference.

00:14:28: while compared way back in the days and Saudi it was like a one-guide decision most of The time which is also evolving now in Saudi.

00:14:35: That's not the case anymore.

00:14:37: So, that was the first thing?

00:14:39: I got to see because It's not up on my one man job You know, it's a team team base approach.

00:14:46: you have the patient himself.

00:14:48: Even if you think like oh this is not good for you they will.

00:14:51: That's not the quality of life I'm looking for.

00:14:53: Mm-hmm, I have the right to make that decision.

00:14:56: So even the patient is involved in making a decision and it's called now Patient centered care.

00:15:00: so the patient has to be this center.

00:15:02: Yeah

00:15:02: Not what do you want?

00:15:03: or but i want?

00:15:05: And then It's not only the physician Is not only The nurse is not Only did the pharmacist they're all come together.

00:15:11: And though as the change at that time I did my internship In Saudi and then I did another internship in the US.

00:15:17: And that was the major different at that time, uh like they start let's say The daily rounds with a team.

00:15:24: so you have a physician?

00:15:25: You Have a nurse to have respiratory therapists who are physical physiotherapists.

00:15:28: do you have pharmacist or clinical pharmacist?

00:15:30: So they all come.

00:15:31: okay alright we have this patient.

00:15:33: So what do you think is best for him?

00:15:35: as a medication expert i would say XYZ.

00:15:38: And then the physicians will say, oh I agree with you but if we're gonna do this.

00:15:42: Then We have to consider that then The nurse would come and say well But we don't have the axis or the line That week that we want a use for this medication because he has this in this on that.

00:15:51: So at the end?

00:15:52: We all come together and we came up with the best decision For that patient.

00:15:56: so many perspectives You take in consideration there.

00:15:58: one person might not Have half and then you'd do the best for the patients.

00:16:03: very good What was one thing that you think had shaped the experience from America, that you probe back to Saudi.

00:16:12: What was it?

00:16:12: One experience did you say... That has shaped my decisions or way of working in medical field forever.

00:16:22: I mean uh.. You know i think its same for getting a PhD or getting a doctor degree or both graduate.

00:16:28: I think what really completely changed my mind.

00:16:31: So....I always have this dream when I was young to go a specific certain school in the

00:16:37: U.S.,

00:16:38: and i was literally dying to get into that school, so like oh...I have to go to that school!

00:16:44: So..i did my bachelor, i did my internship , i did residency, specialized residency.... i did all of this to reach that school which is Harvard Medical School.

00:16:56: And then you know that fancy name ''Oh My God Harvard''.

00:17:02: Hundreds of people from Harvard alumni and current and PhD holders is not the school that makes them special Is actually the people who make that's cool?

00:17:12: Special it's not this cool.

00:17:14: That adds up to my name.

00:17:16: I think there, that's why Howard is so Amazing an excellent number one in leading because all these graduates They are the one who brought up.

00:17:23: The name of school is not the other way around, and that's what really changed my mind.

00:17:27: so I was like Oh My God!

00:17:28: I'm trying to pursue on trying to get all these degrees.

00:17:32: i got So many board certifications.

00:17:34: Like out my fellowships?

00:17:35: I caught this.

00:17:35: I cut dad And then eventually realize it's Not about the certificate It's About the change you do.

00:17:41: its about the difference You Do in people's life

00:17:43: changes within exactly

00:17:45: Exactly which change Within you.

00:17:46: yeah, so What's the point Of having All These Degrees and All These Certificates if you're not Humble If you cannot communicate with people, if you can not sit down with people and try to explain simple things to them.

00:17:57: So what I would say my goal has shifted away to change peoples life.

00:18:03: Not like i'm not going to pursue any personal because at the end it's just a personal value.

00:18:09: but when I see someone When I walk now in My hometown And I see previous students or previous interns or resident Or I get a text.

00:18:17: oh my god thank You so much.

00:18:20: Advice me to do so.

00:18:21: Oh my god, I got that.

00:18:22: I think this is a real value.

00:18:25: Yes That's what i'm looking After right now.

00:18:28: yeah To drive the change in people's life Because I think that's What's gonna The legacy?

00:18:32: That's going lift later on after years and years.

00:18:35: Is that not the certificate you're holding?

00:18:37: because everyone can get such as a certificate but Not every one Can't Change People's Life

00:18:41: Exactly.

00:18:42: And uh that is wow A really um key point In where You can actually bring so much value back to your country, and the value itself also to colleagues.

00:18:55: Where you said earlier that there was one man decision.

00:18:59: when you come with an attitude or a mindset that has changed then don't see actually what you did yourself but suddenly have this shadow that's getting visible through all of other life happens.

00:19:14: What do change?

00:19:14: Through other people is beautiful.

00:19:17: Tell me a little bit.

00:19:18: I think that's really my personal interest to understand, and maybe also our audience wants know what was the hardest thing in America?

00:19:27: To adopt culture wise.

00:19:28: is it?

00:19:29: Was It A Challenge?

00:19:30: Did You Feel It Was Easy To Adopt?

00:19:33: Or What Was The Biggest Challenge or The Biggest?

00:19:36: Aha Okay!

00:19:37: I Don't Know That.

00:19:39: I Definitely Don'T Want To Have This In My Life Or What Did you Adored?

00:19:44: Just A Little Bit Of This Background would love to hear about.

00:19:47: Yeah,

00:19:48: yeah I mean now thinking about it...I don't even know where to start but i'd say like you know coming into the US and always have this all right..always want exercise.

00:20:01: make sure that im going to gym making sure my health is something i dont play with its part of my day.

00:20:08: so go in to the gym!

00:20:10: That was a big change for me

00:20:12: really?

00:20:12: So thats the first cultural shock Like, you know like things they have open showers.

00:20:19: and I was like oh what's going on?

00:20:21: What are your guys

00:20:23: doing?".

00:20:24: So that was the first cultural shock.

00:20:25: And it was like...what wrong this is something normal.

00:20:29: so That was The First thing i remember Going to the US.

00:20:32: It wasn't closed.

00:20:36: No, no not gonna do.

00:20:37: But yeah eventually then You started To Know what kind of gyms They Have these Different Kind Of Sitting.

00:20:43: so that Was the first Cultural Shock for me.

00:20:46: But the major things, which I feel are always something that I don't want to change.

00:20:53: When you see a patient coming alone in the hospital by themselves... That was really sad for me compared with Saudi.

00:21:05: Something will never change!

00:21:07: Oh my god, a patient will come with his wife and his daughter.

00:21:10: And he's son then is cousin.

00:21:12: in this far cousin they're all going to comment.

00:21:15: ask you these hundred questions was wrong within?

00:21:18: fix him?

00:21:19: I think that the biggest key that's the biggest part in terms of cultural differences again have a lot on my colleagues.

00:21:27: so it's a culture thing once your eighteen Get out, go get your degrees.

00:21:34: Be on yourself be responsible which I don't think is wrong but it leads you to one thing at the end eventually You're not spending as much time with your family.

00:21:45: So i remember again going through the US and uh One of my close friend.

00:21:50: they asked me where do you live back in your home?

00:21:52: Said I'll live with my parents.

00:21:53: He was like

00:21:54: what?!

00:21:54: You live with your

00:21:55: parents?!

00:21:56: Oh My God how old are you.

00:21:58: come on!

00:21:59: Go get a house.

00:22:00: And until now, I have my own house.

00:22:03: I'm married and we still live in our apartment but we do the same place.

00:22:09: That's the biggest cultural difference.

00:22:11: You're

00:22:12: still reliable?

00:22:14: No!

00:22:15: Now it is other way around Making sure that you are helping them whenever they need.

00:22:20: It's time to pay back The big cultural difference that I was always, it's fun to talk with them and they make joke like oh my god you still live with your parents.

00:22:30: come on grow up be responsible.

00:22:33: And as a parent i still think my parents take care of me until today just having my father whatever i have even if something related to medications.

00:22:44: yeah i go discuss with my mom like i have this situation and they really give you some great insights.

00:22:50: so It

00:22:53: is both

00:22:53: ways.

00:22:54: You know, that fight very adorable to comparing even from my side the European market here with Arabic culture because the government here is strengthening The institution of families so much That something like this totally normal and With a strong family institution in a government or within culturally In the country you have such that's basically the backbone of a whole country, right?

00:23:27: Where in Europe it's?

00:23:29: and destruction off of family.

00:23:32: A family cannot survive when only one part is working on both parts maybe half even two or three jobs.

00:23:39: so what happened then?

00:23:41: The Child Is Going To Be In The Kindergarten Being Raised By Governmental Institutions And Not By The Values Of Family when a lot of confusion happens in this young generation, now they don't even know if there are male or female in the European side.

00:24:00: And that's why I adore the Arabic way so much that the institution of family has been so strengthened by the government and by the cultural background.

00:24:11: So...

00:24:11: It literally ...I love it at point you're making ..it literally even affects the policies..so i remember also one thing going to US If you have let's say a health care plan specific healthcare plans, so it's only for you and your kids or if your kids are included The other way around here in Saudi.

00:24:30: So first our parents.

00:24:32: So for example, if you work until like the National Guard Or so they directly gets to the health benefits that you're getting even the policies themselves in in the Middle East Supports as he says supports these decision.

00:24:45: you have that plan, even your parents directly goes with it.

00:24:48: Which is amazing which I found always fascinating.

00:24:52: yeah It is so when we talk about the big difference of all of the culturally backgrounds to towards or compensation to the Middle East.

00:25:05: You mentioned in your last keynote that i heard on Tufada and got know each other there.

00:25:12: your patient-centered approach is something very important to you and there's no unique way for everybody.

00:25:19: It was individual, of course medicine is individual by even twins.

00:25:24: they are individuals.

00:25:26: so tell me a little bit more.

00:25:28: how can you implement?

00:25:30: By I'm just having this one picture in my head that um, uh company or a hospital whatsoever.

00:25:40: I'm always looking this out of the perspective off business as well.

00:25:44: so when you have that one person who is making decisions and then change into something patient centered Where do you think this is coming from?

00:25:56: and to your face?

00:25:58: This is easy to implement in health care industry, In the Middle East or it's their approach too true.

00:26:07: To take this transfer that you got obviously for my America hard-to-implement

00:26:12: I mean The reason why they're switching to a patient centered.

00:26:16: This is after years and years and use And hundreds of years i would say of studying.

00:26:21: how can we fix?

00:26:22: because again It will affect the coast.

00:26:24: If you have a lot of patients coming to hospital and cannot stop them from coming, it'll drive the coast regardless.

00:26:31: this is just ABCD.

00:26:33: The patient going into the hospital spent one day there.

00:26:36: This is pretty much in the US about a thousand dollar of just staying, not medications.

00:26:41: Not getting lines

00:26:42: or

00:26:42: changes.

00:26:44: Just occupying your bed even if you don't have anything right?

00:26:47: Staying there to check up and talk about labs so it really drives the coast.

00:26:53: So driving a coast.

00:26:54: I would say that's major determinant for changing healthcare fields.

00:26:59: How can we reduce that cost If patient isn't paying attention?

00:27:03: If I tell him, okay now we have all this advancement.

00:27:06: And that's the best medication in your situation or for you disease What's the point if he is not taking the medication?

00:27:13: He will come back again to me and i would eventually pay way more money.

00:27:19: The idea even though the medications are costly it´s ok as a health care provider rather than having him come into hospital with stroke or something very bad Or make him end up in the hospital for quite a long time.

00:27:36: So that's changed.

00:27:37: In the u.s Really improved healthcare overall.

00:27:41: so they're seeing better control for chronic diseases like diabetes Like obesity, like hypertension cardiovascular disease all these kind of diseases Which is why everyone now is catching up okay?

00:27:52: It makes sense.

00:27:53: if the patient Is not dissentered we will never be able to fix anything and health care.

00:28:00: And it's not easy.

00:28:02: It's not easy to convince the patient, take a medication or quit smoking.

00:28:06: Or go to gym and do exercise... ...or fix his diet.

00:28:10: Have you seen food in Middle East?

00:28:12: I know!

00:28:14: That is something that

00:28:15: you can't

00:28:16: fix.

00:28:16: Oh my God.. I always like it.

00:28:19: The foods your mom makes are not healthy but tasty.

00:28:26: My philosophy when i see a patient.... I don't tell him stop.

00:28:30: I don't tell him to stop because, I promise you he knows everything.

00:28:33: He knows that small king is gonna kill him.

00:28:37: Sugar's going to kill me if we have diabetes.

00:28:39: Obesity will cause all these other diseases and he has heard it enough And doesn't want to hear anymore from anyone!

00:28:47: I sit down with the patient first and try open up a conversation.

00:28:52: Do you have a daughter?

00:28:52: do You Have A Son, Do You Have Kids?

00:28:54: What Kind Of Family You Have?

00:28:56: Just You Know While I'm Telling Him Okay Let Me Just Log In Put Your Information.

00:29:00: What's Your Name?

00:29:01: Blah Blah Oh!

00:29:02: You're Married.

00:29:02: You Have You Have kids.

00:29:04: Where Do You Live?

00:29:05: And i Start To Have This Relationship.

00:29:09: Come On.

00:29:09: Everyone Loves to Talk About Their Kids and about their Marriage, Their Father, Their Mom.

00:29:14: They Love Talking...This Is Something Everyone Has To Do Or Have To Do.

00:29:19: And the moment they start talking about, oh my daughter is now graduating.

00:29:23: She's finishing high school she's finished going to university and starting showing you pictures of that.

00:29:30: this was when I got that patient.

00:29:32: Now i know he's in back-of-my-pocket So how old is she?

00:29:41: Oh thats interesting.

00:29:42: And then I take that idea back to the medication.

00:29:45: You want us spend more time with her, you wanna see her graduating?

00:29:48: You're getting married and your grandkids play with them.

00:29:55: This medication will help reach this goal.

00:29:58: Do it be my guest!

00:30:01: It's your decision not yours.

00:30:04: You are the one who has explained it to your family.

00:30:07: Exactly if in a hospital or stroke They have to take care of you, they have to spend all these time and come into the hospital.

00:30:15: And I promise your healthcare providers are getting paid but their family aren't really affected

00:30:22: or

00:30:22: suffering with this.

00:30:24: now when it gets scared because always we knew switch thinking from you two kids Your mom to your father.

00:30:32: This is when you're gonna take care of

00:30:33: them.

00:30:33: Yeah,

00:30:33: we love them way more than what

00:30:35: I actually out of the stubborn thinking into the feeling and when you'll take on The relationship to the family then that is a powerful yeah?

00:30:45: I mean i've seen it walk with my dad.

00:30:47: My father never listens to me because i'm always his child.

00:30:51: You know i'm also child in his eyes like oh my god.

00:30:55: consultant cardiologist and you still cannot fix these medications for me.

00:31:00: Oh,

00:31:01: so he always has this.

00:31:02: but then when I had my daughter uh... So i said okay You want to play with her?

00:31:07: Do you wanna spend more time with her or do you wanna?

00:31:10: And now the change shifts ya know.

00:31:12: Okay yeah.. I wanna.

00:31:13: I wanna spend More Time!

00:31:14: I wanna be up-to-date With My

00:31:15: Medications!!

00:31:16: I Wanna Make Sure I'm Following Up With My Appointments And I think it also goes to pretty much everything.

00:31:22: The smoking, the weight loss, the gym... Even me myself if i'm lazy don't feel like going to the gym.

00:31:28: That

00:31:28: happened?

00:31:30: Yeah

00:31:31: that's what happens sometimes after a long day of work!

00:31:34: I was just let me go home today.

00:31:35: It is okay and I've worked for so many steps Todays..I try to cheat myself And I know, I don't want to open my phone.

00:31:43: Because if i saw you know my mom's picture or my daughter's picture...I'm gonna go the gym not for me but them and this ideology always works very

00:31:53: good that you can transport it towards your patients.

00:31:59: Dr.

00:31:59: Asian?

00:32:00: I wanted to know.. I am just tuning mind wise into a situation.

00:32:05: where are in US You take knowledge get to know so many realizations about your own path.

00:32:15: Where was the point where you decided, I wanted to go back?

00:32:20: Oh

00:32:22: yeah that's a tough decision to

00:32:23: make!

00:32:24: Yeah after i finished all my studies and all of my board certifications pretty much got my titles and everything.

00:32:35: job offers were just pouring at

00:32:37: me

00:32:37: when it wasn't in US.

00:32:40: with, I would say way much more money than what's... What i know is going to be in Saudi.

00:32:48: Because again the practice there and culture are there.

00:32:52: they literally guide lines new medications everything is invented it over here.

00:32:58: but that was same mindset of telling you about Well, what about my home country?

00:33:05: Should I just leave it.

00:33:06: What about all these payments that they're doing for me?

00:33:10: They took really good care of.

00:33:11: even Even i had a situation where My wife was hospitalized For couple days and at the time he Was very stressful with trying to keep up with her because it was only me and her.

00:33:26: No one else, which I know is normally in the US.

00:33:29: this isn't normal in Saudi.

00:33:31: you have all your families there

00:33:32: to support.

00:33:33: so yeah

00:33:34: It wasn't easy.

00:33:35: but uh...I remember i got a call from the embassy like hey we just listen do not worry about anything bills everything its taking care of try keep up whatever you need were here.

00:33:50: Wow, the embassy call you?

00:33:53: That would never happen to the German embassy.

00:33:57: Adorable!

00:33:58: Yeah yeah it was okay.

00:33:59: that touch...that feeling like no I will go back..I'll go back regardless.

00:34:04: what are gonna offer me?

00:34:05: especially then when we have a kid and he is growing up and thats always a concern for me i wanna make sure.

00:34:11: uh....the environments its similar to the environment's I grow up in.

00:34:17: Then my I'm not saying the environments there is bad.

00:34:20: I'm always grateful for the experience that I had in the US But as a kid, I think no.

00:34:24: As a kid?

00:34:25: I wanted to be raised with your grandparents around you or cousins.

00:34:30: You just enjoy it Enjoyed.

00:34:32: i don't want him alone going into daycare and do know It's Not Bad!

00:34:36: I am not saying its bad but since I have That option even might work as well To go back in Saudi And My son loves So.

00:34:43: he was born In The U.S Until He Was Four And then he was always like, come on.

00:34:50: Come I want to go one goto Saudi Saudi Saudi.

00:34:52: Yeah because you know cousins has this age is playing with them and He had so many kids.

00:34:57: when we gather in my mom's house So my daughter my sisters My sister's kids his Sister from his mom side they all have kids.

00:35:07: just the houses full of joy.

00:35:10: And i think that something even for us adults We wanna see and something really change your point-of view too life.

00:35:17: I mean, thank you for sharing these insights.

00:35:21: And that makes the whole situation why it turned back totally understandable and... ...and i wanted to therefore jump a little bit into the career path that you then continued here in Dubai.

00:35:34: today You are part of an educational program right?

00:35:37: You're leader-educational leader.

00:35:39: tell us a little more about the motivation what your actually achieving.

00:35:46: Yeah, I mean coming back to Saudi within I would say two years.

00:35:53: I started to get more like authorization rules In different fields like in the university and the hospital.

00:36:00: I'm working at And this gets you to connect two more people meeting people from medication company connecting with people who do Who do research with you?

00:36:09: So these work, you know With this group are walking with clinical trials with this group on working with that and then even though The culture in Saudi themselves am from Medina if You don't know Medina Macca This is like the tool holy cities.

00:36:22: So we get also a lot of pilgrims coming to these two cities.

00:36:26: I still meet some my friends from the US, come here seeing health care fields and giving you insight... Oh!

00:36:32: You remember in the

00:36:33: U.S.,

00:36:33: when used do this or that with this number of patients?

00:36:38: Why not consider it like

00:36:38: so?!

00:36:39: And thats why i think area is evolving so fast in Middle East With having people coming.. This isn't going stop.

00:36:46: People will come to Medina for hundreds and hundred years As they've been doing for thousands of years and the health care providers at healthcare fields are evolving so fast in the Middle East.

00:36:59: I mean, yes.

00:37:00: I know this conference is.

00:37:01: it was a thirty first year.

00:37:02: So yeah one.

00:37:03: It's not that much compared to the conferences that are being made in the US.

00:37:08: It's still young, and I love what they were showing when they brought all gentlemen who was explaining how it used to be about fifteen years ago or twenty years ago on how they fix their patients' medications...

00:37:21: It looks like

00:37:23: a recipe!

00:37:23: Yeah, if you have an upset stomach just eat them today.

00:37:31: big centers from the US coming now to the Middle East, to Riyadh or Dubai.

00:37:36: To Qatar.

00:37:37: obviously all these area in the middle east are.

00:37:40: I think within a very short period of time they will take the lead so we would not.

00:37:45: yeah The U.S guideline is still there but probably you're gonna be seeing Middle Eastern guidelines.

00:37:50: why?

00:37:50: because?

00:37:50: We have the tick we have AI tools and people who went there and studied and had their knowledge back.

00:37:57: So i don't think it was the wrong decision to come back because I think

00:38:02: it's paying

00:38:02: off right now.

00:38:03: It's paying of.

00:38:04: you went there, You got the knowledge?

00:38:06: Now we have the tools We have everything.

00:38:07: let's build

00:38:08: that new healthcare field and That's actually my work today when i'm working with doctors from abroad.

00:38:15: they see The political course or geopolitical cost change in the market is affecting the healthcare system here in the UAE or in the Middle East.

00:38:29: And I predict that we have from five years from now a very different landscape and medical health care, and i'm happy to be somehow part of it... ...and pick up brains for experts who also designed the medical landscape.

00:38:47: Now Isan let me understand if A high skilled expert from abroad wants to choose the career pathway here in the Middle East, anywhere.

00:38:59: what he has to know before any kind of universities, decrees and specializations.

00:39:06: What He has to understand about the Middle East when he wants to work live?

00:39:12: And enjoy his life here.

00:39:14: Yeah I would say The best thing is to start To see their vision Of that place That you want to go to Whatever Their country is Saudi Qatar Dubai.

00:39:24: So whats the Vision over there?

00:39:26: Achieve what is the goal they're trying to get?

00:39:30: I think that's the number one thing.

00:39:31: They gonna look What do you want it doing in their area?

00:39:34: and then, what can you bring?

00:39:36: because i promise You all of you will bring a lot.

00:39:39: That's The reason why we went there To give your brain And to get the knowledge and see whats happening over There.

00:39:45: but now Whats changing Is the tools are here Everything is getting Here So Your Brain With All These Tools Absolutely will make things

00:39:54: worse.

00:39:55: Yeah,

00:39:56: just like magic.

00:39:58: So I would say looking at the vision looking at that place what they want to reach What do you wanna try?

00:40:02: To Do?

00:40:03: They want a bring The health care fields here there when uh Like for example what's happening now In couple of institutions in Saudi.

00:40:12: they want Bring their clinical trials.

00:40:15: clinical trial so the clinical trials which means we want to test these medications here.

00:40:21: We want to be the one, the biennial that leadings and we wanna be the ones where this medication start getting

00:40:25: manufactured.".

00:40:26: And I think you saw very clearly yesterday with hundreds of medications company, hundreds of institutions coming into the expedition it was even me wasn't expecting a fairly huge number of big names companies.

00:40:41: now they all have headquarters in this hot area.

00:40:47: When it comes to those developments in the Middle East, I think there's also a specific change that i always find when i help doctors get their license and so on.

00:41:00: The intensity of treatments they have abroad is totally different from.

00:41:11: I advise always the doctors only to come here once they have already some kind of expertise that brings a certain routine because in the patient side as well, I predict this will be different.

00:41:37: How do you think is the development of this one?

00:41:40: Because when everybody's moving or so many people are moving... ...the market is also maturing on the patients' side?

00:41:49: Do you think that how...?

00:41:51: In times of learning and working XYZ years in Europe is the same amount of treatments that you do here in the Middle East.

00:42:02: How far, how far?

00:42:03: You think this as a part from perspective of density...

00:42:08: That's an excellent point and I'm glad to have brought it up because yes your right used to be back in days.

00:42:17: if we had patients who didn't know what was going on they would send them to Europe or US well-established places out there.

00:42:27: for hundreds of years and all the advancement of procedures, it's still here.

00:42:33: But what if we brought these people here?

00:42:35: And that

00:42:36: is what happened.

00:42:37: like now we have this big institution in Middle East opening up...

00:42:42: Do you know why it happens?

00:42:45: the amount of money they're getting paid?

00:42:47: Not necessary, because when not only the doctor is here.

00:42:52: They come out of economically backgrounds and motivations also security it's very secure to be in the Middle East.

00:42:59: that one motivation on the doctors side but I can now talk about the European healthcare system is very under stress.

00:43:08: And therefore like ten, fifteen years ago they took a lot of Syrian doctors on that immigrated to that and was very welcome towards with health care.

00:43:20: but all these doctors are economically development in Europe.

00:43:26: They're leaving especially because they wanted build up their country return back to their culture, and that brings the whole healthcare system in Europe so under stress.

00:43:36: That sometimes you have to wait as a patient eight or nine months just for dermatologists.

00:43:41: And if somebody has funds of not waiting then he will buy time traveling to countries where there's doctors who escaped some time before To be visited in order not to pay... In order NOT TO WAIT AND BE FASTER.

00:43:59: And that's why I think the Middle East is going to be a totally centered shift in health care markets, because not only do physicians are transferring but also because this system has so much under stress.

00:44:13: The patients will shift and it brings the middle east into an entirely different position.

00:44:19: This is very...

00:44:21: I would add as well for support.

00:44:24: They don't get as much support over there.

00:44:27: So if I want to reach from A to B and you're going just drive me around, drives me round while here.

00:44:35: I wanna go to be say okay why do we have a shared goal?

00:44:40: I will take myself as the driver.

00:44:42: let's go.

00:44:43: so in terms of seeing more patients coming now shifting into Middle East yes i agree We see right know.

00:44:53: some clinical trials are coming out from middle east which means Now the policy makers, procedures all these people.

00:44:58: The authority.

00:45:00: they're working together so we can have more pool of patient.

00:45:04: We had more data So you can come up later with more recommendations for example guidelines or that's what we tested here.

00:45:11: We've tried on a hundred thousand patients and we saw it work.

00:45:16: The other world now will start to look at this area as a center of producing.

00:45:21: Not only out the center off their profession, but also about the Center Of Availability To A Patient that let's imagine That there is an patient who has to wait long time just because the system is ruled by the insurances.

00:45:37: This Is Very Misalignment.

00:45:39: Even a doctor that's then economically changed, in the motivation of leaving their country.

00:45:47: They get actually fined when they are treating too many patients and have to pay out-of-their own pockets.

00:45:53: so this is totally misalignment.

00:45:56: why it isn't even attractive being a doctor at a certain time.

00:46:02: That brings not only the physician who comes first but the economically strong people that can afford.

00:46:12: they will manage to follow these physicians.

00:46:14: That's why I think it is also a very beneficial part, you bring this up-road expertise with you and evaluate your framework of these foreign doctors who come here because Certainly, you don't want them to create something that is not fitting for the culture.

00:46:38: That has a totally other approach and I think it's such beneficial work from your side when creating this framework of these professions in order to develop the country here within those frameworks because they have the cultural background.

00:46:57: so we can compare both sides.

00:47:02: Yeah, I agree.

00:47:04: Finally when you look five years ahead where do you see the Middle East in health care?

00:47:10: You said about this shift and what will be a head.

00:47:14: but What is your prediction?

00:47:16: yeah

00:47:17: i think if you Look at it from different levels In terms of hospitals in terms of universities and academia in terms Of patients themselves in Terms of medications company and manufacturing companies.

00:47:28: i Think all these area Will Be very fastly growing and evolving.

00:47:33: We see major changes in all these institutions that I mentioned, I'm seeing now all this medications manufacturing company coming here because it's more plausible to do their approval process and try to get the medication reached for patient faster than other areas used.

00:47:54: So I think this will drive a major change in the Middle East.

00:47:59: As you said, we're probably going to have more healthcare providers coming shifting especially if their goals are aligned.

00:48:06: If me and you had the same goal why not talk with me?

00:48:10: You can help reach my goal.

00:48:12: It's gonna be better overall situation for us In terms of housing... And i'm meeting many friends who used to live back here to live in the Middle East and they're loving it.

00:48:26: They say everything is safe, I can walk wandering at night as much as i can but don't have to worry about anything.

00:48:33: so think its goes beyond just one factor The area.

00:48:38: overall he's still growing.

00:48:41: there are more to see why these people have, if they come here.

00:48:46: They will also have more benefits to provide in terms of reaching these goals and the Middle East?

00:48:52: Exactly!

00:48:53: That's so nice to pick your brain.

00:48:54: I always for my podcast guests a little quick round Let's do it.

00:48:59: One country that you would happily live ever after

00:49:06: Other than Medina other then my hometown...I did enjoy South Africa

00:49:11: Did You?

00:49:11: A lot

00:49:13: quite a while there and it was wonderful time so.

00:49:17: It's gonna have to be between Maldives, South Africa the US but I would go with south africa.

00:49:24: okay good yeah.

00:49:25: And what is the quality?

00:49:28: The one quality that you value in other people the most

00:49:32: i would say There are a lot of qualities.

00:49:35: uh But humbleness humblness humbliness especially when you get all these titles this where Your true color, your true skin has to be shown.

00:49:44: Yes the equal has a lot of

00:49:46: yes.

00:49:46: so if you I think we've seen a lot Of examples in the last couple days these people that i used To use their references they're books as a reference is and You see them just walking around And you know shaking everyone's hand and talking with this and talking With students talking with interns Having breakfast with it was So great to see.

00:50:07: yeah

00:50:07: See that picture?

00:50:10: for everyone, especially regardless of whatever certificate you get.

00:50:13: Humbleness, humbleness...

00:50:15: Very good quality!

00:50:17: And one more question where is actually the lesson that you learned from a failure?

00:50:22: What's it like to learn from a big failure?

00:50:25: It

00:50:28: was such stressful time and I was about my low exam.

00:50:34: so in US we have to take a low exam not only your clinical exams but also there are lower exams And coming as someone who's not native in English was so difficult to take that exam because it rely heavily on the language level.

00:50:49: So I failed at first time and he wasn't disastrous for me, Because i cannot get my license until I pass my law exam... ...and have never felt anything of my life before!

00:50:58: So It Was A Shocking!

00:50:59: I fail an exam?

00:51:00: Oh My God!

00:51:01: And I was stressing about it now really wanted to Like okay, you know what?

00:51:06: This is not the right path for me.

00:51:08: I want to just call it a day.

00:51:09: I don't wanna maybe i don't have What he takes and I have to have all these doubts about myself until I met one of The great clinicians And he saw me like upset and did not really paying attention.

00:51:22: I said well happened to you how they told him Really am ashamed that can tell You and He was like what's wrong will happen totally my fail at My law exam.

00:51:31: Hmm.

00:51:32: and he told Me which time Is this?

00:51:34: He was like, what?

00:51:37: Is this the first time you fail it?

00:51:38: Yeah.

00:51:38: It's his first time and told me that is okay.

00:51:41: so we have a club here called The Ones Who Failed the Law Exam two times.

00:51:45: So come on!

00:51:46: Fail one more time to join us.

00:51:49: I was like, what are you talking about?

00:51:50: He said no.

00:51:51: This is this example.

00:51:53: never said who You Are and that's something i always tell my students.

00:51:56: do not hook up on grades or marks or certificates Or getting this or That.

00:52:01: Do Not Hook Up On This.

00:52:03: it will.

00:52:04: now when i think About It Was Such A Very Minor Rock in My Way And uh...you know Just Stimming Over It.

00:52:11: Why?

00:52:12: why I was so stressed?

00:52:13: And what's so sad and couldn't go out for a month or like not be not seeing people.

00:52:18: I was So depressed just because of that exam.

00:52:21: no, it shouldn't define who you are.

00:52:23: So that was the lesson i've learned from failing that exam but eventually

00:52:27: yeah.

00:52:28: But even if it was for you now out of this perspective only as more issue then it gave you a big lesson, right?

00:52:35: And the confidence in also actually undergo failure can be bringing forward.

00:52:43: Which is something I take until my grave... ...I always tell my student do not worry about grades!

00:52:50: Do not think of grades!

00:52:51: Worrying about knowledge and learning.

00:52:55: if you worry this everything will follow you.

00:52:58: success everything follows.

00:52:59: so that's what we should.

00:53:00: That's what I've learned because i was worrying about passing, not really learning.

00:53:07: Definitely changed my mind.

00:53:09: Tell us one thing that makes you truly happy outside medicine?

00:53:15: Playing football.

00:53:16: I love playing football, winning

00:53:18: and playing football.

00:53:21: Very competitive!

00:53:24: Thank you for being here.

00:53:25: i really enjoyed about the conversation that your story showed how an international career can build much more than qualifications but also experience in self development of course courage adoptations and continuous learning.

00:53:43: so a willingness to enter another environment Always brings you forward and I'm very grateful that i could convince You to be here in the podcast, who share your all And everything knowledge Here with our audience.

00:53:57: The

00:53:57: pleasure is all mine.

00:53:58: Thank you for the opportunity thank you For the casting team thank you everyone Who made this opportunity happen so really appreciate it and hopefully To see one day of course yeah.