MEN, MIND & MOMENTUM

Skillionaires Podcast Episode 7

Anna Thiel

[Angela Thomas]

Very welcome to another episode of the podcast Skillnair, the podcast where stories stick and strategies that scale. And today's guest has a very unique thesis. Men that are in an unstable relationship cannot scale.

Very good. Welcome to this episode with Anatil, mentor to men.

[Anna Thiel]

Thank you very much. Thank you for having me.

[Angela Thomas]

Wow, this is a very thesis, very controversial. Yeah, controversial thesis. So tell us a little bit about this.

Thank you for being actually also the first female interview guest here. I want to I like this. Yeah, I never had a female interview guest.

So thank you for that. And we can see actually, the very good tendency that we have here with so many people who are into interviews are males that scale. I mean, besides me.

But tell us about your thesis. What is actually on it? Because every interview guest also I ask how they take along the private life for the way of scaling and when they are scaling.

And yeah, they have different strategies. So what is your opinion on this? Why you think they cannot scale good enough?

[Anna Thiel]

So I'd like to start in the beginning why I believe that it would be more supportive to be able to scale better. To look at it from the other point of view, the positive one is that when you have a partner, in this case, if you're a man and you have a wife or a spouse, and the partner is supportive of your vision of your goals of your business, then obviously, it's much easier for you. And why is that is because when when you have somebody on your side that is supporting you, as opposed to stressing you, obviously, it's much easier to focus.

So for a man when he focuses on his business, which he does a lot of times, especially when he's scaling, which is a, it's a, it's an unusual phase of the business to scale, as you know, yourself better than me and a lot of other people. So it can be very demanding can be very stressful can be just a time that might have challenges, so on and so forth. So what you do need is a wife or a spouse that is with you on the journey that has either is sharing, you know, the vision and the goal.

So has unified vision and goals and or is maybe even, you know, working in the business as well, bringing in her own skills, and therefore supporting and taking some of the workload off. Or you could just have, you know, that emotional stability at home, so that the man can focus solely on the business can maybe even take more risks, knowing that at home, he's got, you know, the emotional stability he knows in the back of his mind, he knows at home, it's peaceful at home, there's somebody supporting me. So I don't have to put my thinking onto that or even think of what unfortunately, a lot of men do is think home equals stress home equals demand home equals expectations home equals a lot of things that are not necessarily positive.

But if you want to scale if you want to grow any business, you need to have a focus and a clean focus. So as peaceful as it is at home, or the more peaceful it is at home, the better and easier it is to scale.

[Angela Thomas]

Very interesting. And I that supports totally my thesis that you never win actually a two side battle in any kind of everybody will lose in that one. And that's why I can only outline how important it is to actually have a stable relationship on that supportive to your business.

Now, Anna, yeah, we know each other since about a year now, a year and a half, maybe tell me a little bit about why and how did you came to that? Let's say awkward situation and positioning to help men actually. And what expertise is that, that you bring in here?

And from where is it rooted?

[Anna Thiel]

I actually saw so business and coaching and spirituality. Those are all topics that I've been into for many decades, I've been lucky enough to have to have had a very spiritual mom and an entrepreneurial father. So those topics have been around me for a long time.

And I always, you know, I was coaching friends and, you know, learning a lot of things by running my own business also in South Africa, and just meeting a lot of CEOs, owners, GMs, whatever, over the decades. And I just noticed that I wanted to focus on kids first and then on women. And then I noticed that there's nobody really focusing on men only or specifically, predominantly.

And if there were, then there were other men. And ever since I've actually got the feedback that it's much easier for men to open this doesn't go for every man, of course, yes, to open himself to a woman rather than to another man, whatever the reasons might be ego or not being vulnerable in front of another man. And, you know, all that pretending that men have to do.

So okay.

[Angela Thomas]

Yeah.

[Anna Thiel]

And for me, it's always been easy. I mean, I grew up with two brothers. So really, we were three boys.

I've always hung out with guys, I've always find it easy to speak to them. So it was kind of like, almost like preparing me for this mission that I'm on now, which I really love. And I see that there's more and more people actually creating spaces for men, creating safe spaces, coachings, brotherhood circles, those kind of things.

So I'm very happy to see that because it is very necessary. And I'm only one person. So the more the merrier.

And yeah, that's how I got to decide.

[Angela Thomas]

Wow, I'm getting goosebumps in there, because it's so it's so speaking from your heart. And I can totally feel this, how much passion you have with that and the certainty that you bring with it and the peaceful energy that it's just flowing over this table. It is just like kind of, I can only imagine how big of the space that you hold, how important the space that you hope for these men is actually.

Yeah, really, really happy to hear that. And gives me as a female, a totally other point of view about men that there is this soft, yeah, side on them, the side of where they have not this ability of packing out actually in front of everybody. And this is very insightful for me to see that a female takes over that strong part in actually but in being soft, you know, so that's something who I really like.

Thank you. Thank you for your work.

[Anna Thiel]

Thank you very much. I also, you know, you've in your first question embedded to something and I'd like to answer it's, you know, expertise wise, it's just, you know, decades of that knowledge and wisdom, as well as feminine intuition and presence that I bring to the table.

[Angela Thomas]

Yeah.

[Anna Thiel]

To hold that space to create that safe space for them.

[Angela Thomas]

Very good. Very good. And I want to understand.

Yeah, you work a little bit. And in my world, when I'm thinking about scaling in the interviews that I'm having with people, I'm always asking, where is the point of you see? Aha, this is not a shifting point.

Here I can scale. In the context of your work, I wanted to recreate this question a little bit. And I wanted to ask you, when does a man realize there is a reason why I'm not scaling or why I'm holding this level that I cannot overcome?

Is there any awareness? Because sometimes in my work, there is no awareness on the other side. And that's why they are not ready for me to become a customer in having more revenue, sales training.

And so if I need to convince them that they could do better, I'm leaving it out because then they are not ready. Then they have to do their homework. Is there such a situation with men in your context that you're working with?

Do they have the awareness, something is going on? And when then they come to you? And when should they come to you?

[Anna Thiel]

Actually, it's exactly the same as it is with you. So awareness is always key. It's always the first step.

If they're not aware, they will not come to me. I only attract the ones that are aware and that are ready as the second step. There's so many different situations that, you know, create that readiness or create the awareness.

I mean, it can be anything from, you know, having troubles in the relationship or repeating the same kind of patterns or always attracting the same kind of woman or very popular. Also, you know, another I would say another house, another car, another woman and still feeling empty, still feeling unfulfilled, still feeling depressed, unhappy, all those things. And putting it on the business point of view, it's usually when the business is not growing.

So it's plateauing or worst case is getting worse is when that awareness comes that, oh, it might be me. You know, sometimes people ask me, do you work in the in the for men with the profession? I always have to be careful with the way that I word it, obviously, but obviously, because some other people's minds work in different ways, but professionally or private.

And then I always say, it's the private person that is running the business that is running the company that is, you know, seating the CEO position or whatever it is. So it's always the person. So I'm always working with the person.

[Angela Thomas]

Exactly.

[Anna Thiel]

Yeah. So if the person notices, oh, my business is not running well, and is then thinking, oh, it might be me, then that is an awareness. And after that follows the readiness.

[Angela Thomas]

And then they come to you and find actually a way of how you guide them, basically. Yeah. Tell me a little bit more about that much important question.

I think as an entrepreneur, you have two things. Entrepreneurship is actually the most spiritual thing that I could imagine. You have to have this trust in any kind of aspects.

But also, you want it to fulfill your private life. As you said, this is a private person that you are a CEO of. How is it actually then the best way to choose the partner?

This is the most important question that or decision that a business owner has to do to choose the partner for your life, if you choose. So there's a lot of people they don't choose. I like to hear your thesis of that.

But first, I wanted to know what is actually the best way that you think or would advise somebody how to choose this partner? I mean, does it work better if they do not talk at all about business or job related situations in their private life? Or is it crucially important?

Is it crucially important that they grow together? That's in my understanding, but I'm interested in how you see that. And what is your opinion about that?

[Anna Thiel]

Well, I think the reality or life shows us many, many, many different options of constellations that do work and many options of constellations that don't work. And also constellations that used to work and then don't work anymore. And vice versa.

Also, usually when when when a man is an entrepreneur and he's starting out, he's obviously a very different version than what he's going to be, you know, once the success sets in whatever success means. And then, you know, kind of at the end of it all. So the criteria of choosing somebody, you know, that sometimes because there are so many different aspects to it, like where is he at the time that he's choosing somebody and also the person, like you said, you know, do they grow together or is it just for a certain period of their life that they are spending together?

Is the woman somebody who can see? Because a lot of women, I think this kind of goes for all of us. We see a lot of potential and we fall in love with the potential.

But what if he never fulfills that potential that we see? Maybe he doesn't even see it himself. And if you will never see it.

[Angela Thomas]

And does a man works the same way? Does he fall in love with the potential that a woman brings in? Or is it just something different?

Is there a different perspective? Male versus female? Yeah.

A man falls in love with what? And woman falls in love with the man of the potential that you use just like this. How is it in the other side?

[Anna Thiel]

Yeah, that was just one option that she falls into in love with the potential. Obviously, there's lots of other reasons. And then we would have to go into what is love and then, you know, all those different aspects.

So it's quite a complex one. However, I believe it's only my two cents that a man will fall in love with a woman that makes him feel emotionally safe, creates that emotional safe space and that respects him. I think respect is something that men value more than love.

But it's love is something that women value more than respect. Of course, everybody wants to have both. But it's very important for men to be respected for himself, who he is, for what he's doing, how he's providing, whatever the case may be.

So how do men and women fall in love? I mean, it is very common that, you know, for a man to look at a woman, even she would have to be somewhat attractive, right? And each man has his own taste.

So maybe that's to create the first awareness. And then whatever comes afterwards, you know, if it's a short term thing or a long term thing. But I think for the long term thing, it'll always be that emotional safety, safe space that she's providing.

And that might be one of the key factors of how a man chooses a woman to be with him on that entrepreneurial journey. Loyalty is something that's really big for men as well, trust and loyalty, that she's motivating him, that she's encouraging him to become his best version, probably be the ideal idea. Do we all know beforehand?

No, we don't.

[Angela Thomas]

No, we never know.

[Anna Thiel]

Not only romantic relationships, business relationships, friendships, whatever. You never know. You never know where the journey is going to be or how that person is going to evolve or if the person is even going to evolve.

So there's a lot of different factors to it.

[Angela Thomas]

Wow. Thank you for that totally 360 surrounding view that you give us. Just touching on a few points.

Yeah. But on the preparation of this interview, Anna, I found something that made me really think also in the context of you. And that was a video about the case.

It's about maybe a year ago from Germany where they look for missed people. And this was a couple who actually was together for around 14 months. So they were together maybe two years and 14 months married when the guy made actually a trip into the mountains and made himself getting lost.

I mean, that was the appearance. So the woman at home was getting actually the message he had predominantly an accident in the mountains. So they were searching for him and they never found him.

So he wants to get lost. He planned to get lost. And in terms, it was on my preparation on my list of about lying.

And she was actually very mature about that because of the point in terms of lying and coming to your work where you say, I'm holding the space for the CEOs, for these leaders, for at all men, they don't have to lie. They can let down their guard here in the safe space. So something like that doesn't happen.

But how do you as something dramatically like that story doesn't happen? But how do you think it is often happened that they lie not only to the partner about their true feelings, but also to themselves? And how far then is it away from searching and seeking for help?

[Anna Thiel]

Well, firstly, that's a very interesting story.

[Angela Thomas]

It is. Somebody just initiated of getting lost to get out of the relationship or whatever.

[Anna Thiel]

It's a very dramatic way of divorcing. I mean, there is probably easier ways, but maybe it would have been more expensive. Who knows?

[Angela Thomas]

Yeah, I don't know.

[Anna Thiel]

Whatever created that creativity in this person's head. I think it's twofold. One to lie to others and to lie to ourselves.

Generally in society, men have been taught to that their feelings don't matter. So neither to other people and therefore also not to themselves. So when we're all small, the voices of our parents or our guardians, whoever that is, become our own voices.

And so most of them will learn that they shouldn't cry. Their emotions don't matter. They have to always be strong.

They have to carry responsibility really early, those kind of things. So eventually they will just numb themselves to the feelings to themselves and to others. And I on top of that, those childhood experiences, we all just build different layers of behaviors, which will then create the experiences, which will just build on top of each other, kind of reaffirming whatever we've learned in the beginning.

So if we've learned and grown up with feelings don't matter. And I always use that one, don't cry, because that's, I think, one that men heard a lot and still to this day. I mean, that stoicism and everything is still kind of going along the same lines of that.

They will sometimes not even know if you have a child and they're, first of all, not allowed to express their emotions. But then even if there were, they've never been taught how to name these. Am I now angry?

Am I sad? Am I frustrated? Am I disappointed?

What is it? So I think it's a confusion of what is it that I'm feeling, if I'm even feeling. A lot of times it's not feeling, numbing themselves, keeping themselves busy with work, with, you know, other things that are not conducive to a happy life.

But to come back to that, I think that's where the source of the problem lies, is that they've not been taught how to deal with their emotions and that their emotions matter and therefore they matter.

[Angela Thomas]

And now on that point you have a partner that senses there's a misalignment. This person is not truthful, either to the opposite or to themselves. And then they start around and look, how can I help?

So then the journey starts, maybe also to find you. And my partner knows something is going on and I wanted to help my spouse, my partner, but they are not ready maybe. How do you deal with that?

How is that actually to be preached, to find the readiness or to enlighten and ignite the readiness in this person? If my surrounding area, maybe kids also, and my partner knows something is wrong, they're lying to themselves. They're lying to themselves about, I'm okay, I'm fine, I know, it's nothing.

Yeah, but they know something under the surface is going on. And before we are going this way, I'd rather to encourage this person to look after themselves, but sometimes the readiness of this person, yeah, of this man is not there. And how do you recommend to handle that?

[Anna Thiel]

So I personally don't convince anybody. So when people are ready, they will come. I believe everybody is on their own journey, has to learn their own lessons.

Sometimes when we, when we try to help, because we can see things, we can see what, how they're lying to themselves, or we can see the potential, you know, what I mentioned earlier on, and we try to help and we try to tell him this and tell him that, and why don't you do this, and you're so good at that, and all those kinds of things. I don't know if you, I'm sure you've heard that story of the butterfly, that somebody poked a hole into the cocoon and helped the butterfly out. The butterfly came out, but his body was big and his wings were small.

So he, he was never able to fly. If you just don't interfere, the butterfly will just, much like we do, come out of, you know, the birth canal, the butterfly will come out of the cocoon. It is a struggle.

It is a fight. It might be challenging and difficult. However, once we make it out, you know, we, as humans, we scream and the butterfly will just fly off.

And I believe, I use that analogy for explaining that I think that's how, you know, people are. So they need to be on their own journey. And unfortunately, usually something has to hit the fan for people to start waking up and thinking, Oh, maybe I should change something, or maybe there's something wrong, or, you know, I need to look at things.

This can be, you know, diseases or somebody passing away or, you know, business going down or something like the pandemic or whatever can be anything. But usually as humans need a bit of a slap for us to start questioning things. So I leave that up to mother nature or whatever journey they're on.

The only thing I can do is be there, be present, be visible. For example, on social media, you know, be, be there, share reels, share my wisdom, share things, whatever, you know, my opinions. And if it's supposed to be there, I will be in front of them.

And maybe they'll start to watch a few things. And, you know, we'll start questioning themselves or start because I do always put a lot of questions out, when have you lost? Or how about you?

Or how do you feel? Or how is it in your situation? Because my hope and the reason why I do it is that I that people see it and start asking themselves and start questioning because the quality of questions we ask ourselves determines the quality of our lives.

So that's the only way I can create awareness and hopefully land in front of a lot of people who can ask themselves a lot of questions.

[Angela Thomas]

Very good.

[Anna Thiel]

Yeah, the impact Exactly.

[Angela Thomas]

But yeah, we're using this side of social media to get actually people to bump into you. Yes. Also creates maybe to actually meet the people that bump into you, who is the spouse of this person, and then they be sent it to you.

Yeah, it's like, go there. It's good for you. Yeah, just have to be there.

Can you sense if somebody is sent and not ready versus somebody who is sent? And you think this is really good help? Can you then open the door or you say, okay, I cannot have you because your readiness is not there.

It's all about the readiness.

[Anna Thiel]

Yeah. So I only work with the ones that are ready by themselves who came by themselves. When I tell people what I do, I get a lot, specifically women, two responses.

One is, yes, please save them, help them. And the second one, a lot of times is, can you speak to my husband because he's not listening to me. And I'm like, I can do that if he wants to.

Okay, I will not speak to anybody that doesn't want to. Maybe I'll leave that up to other people trying to convince somebody that's not ready. So do I sense it?

I don't know. I believe that I've had the ones that came out of their own free will.

[Angela Thomas]

Okay, very good. Once they find you and once the readiness is there, how is the journey that you are taking them on? And how is it to work with you?

How are the outcomes? And what is next step?

[Anna Thiel]

You're asking me how it is to work with me? Well, looking at my track record.

[Angela Thomas]

Yeah, no, look, you see your clients and you know what is the outcome of it? And how is it to work with you in terms of what are the steps that you are implementing to have those people?

[Anna Thiel]

Okay, so obviously, that was, you know, my ego answering that. I work extremely individual and intuitive. So I don't have one structure.

I don't have a one size fits all, because we're all unique. Nobody's the same. So it's even the situation is not the same.

You know, even if somebody tells me, Oh, I always attract the same kind of woman, just as an example. But the one person will have a different reason why it's happening than the other, they will be in a different space in life than the other world. So it's very, very individual, wherever the person is, and whatever is creating that result, what they're seeing in their lives, you know, as I know, we're all manifesting all the time.

And, you know, whatever we are experiencing is what we've created on some level, mostly unconsciously. And so we will look at how did you get there? It's very deep work.

There's no superficial work. There's no, you know, I'll just give you some time management skills and some leadership stuff. Spend two hours on LinkedIn, you'll have lots of time management skills.

But we go really, really deep into this, the cause of it, looking at the cause rather than looking at the effect and kind of backtracing where the cause is, instead of just fixing the effect, just putting a plaster on the big wound, hoping it's gonna last, or the lack of paint on the wall.

[Angela Thomas]

And as individual as the person is, as individual is your approach with this and your work. And as individuals, also the length of how long it takes, it's also created by how open somebody is and how fast they wanted to go into it. But when this all had happened, how do you celebrate with your clients, with the men that you mentored, the steps, the milestones that they have achieved?

And how do you help them to keep it that way and not to fall back?

[Anna Thiel]

Yeah, to keep the change, I call it. Well, it depends on obviously how they're working to get with me and how closely I get to guide them because of the different options that I have to work with me. It's luckily been so that there's been big wins after a very short time, actually.

And so we celebrate them together. You know, if it's money that has come in or investment that has come in or a court case that has been won or whatever, then we celebrate that together. And it's a lot of times that I think and actually I keep reminding them how it was in the beginning, how it was in our first conversation, where they were, the version that they were at that point in time, and then how it is, you know, a few weeks into it or a few months into it, just so that they can see the journey.

It's very easy when all of a sudden things are going well, you'll forget how it was not so long ago. Yes. So I keep reminding them so that they can see how far they've come already and that they, you know, when it does become challenging, that they can remember, oh, but wait, I can do this.

I have done this already. I've done this way already, you know, and then it's just that continuity and things and tools that I give them to keep that change that they practice in the time that they're with me so that when they're not not anymore with me, which is always my goal to get, you know, to not keep too long in the fastest time possible without being surface level only, but just give them the tools and modalities so they can continue going through things, because there's always something, you know, we're always evolving. And once you start the journey, it's going to be, you know, once you even got rid of all the past stuff, there'll be other things or you want to optimize, you know, now you're at the stage, you're like, Oh, I'd like to become better in this or improve this area or whatever.

So there's always something to do as long as we're humans, and we want to change. There's always things to learn and things to things to do.

[Angela Thomas]

Very good approach and gifts. Also, these men are always goal driven, the you are actually creating the room of where there is a goal for them. Although sometimes there doesn't have to be always a goal.

But I think for men, it is something very specific to have a time, a status of being to reach and therefore, there's a goal to go after. Do they already know when they come to you that there will be a goal? Or are they aware of what their goal actually is?

Or is it always goal less, as I call it? Maybe there's another word for it. But is there always to be a goal?

[Anna Thiel]

Twofold. One of them is when they work with me, it's not about performance, it's actually the opposite.

[Angela Thomas]

And how do you get this out of their system? Because when they come to you, I bet this is all about performance.

[Anna Thiel]

Yeah, because that's, you know, society, that's how they've lived their life. That's, you know, the carrot that they've went after because of things that, you know, factors that dangle the carrot in front of them, usually coming from childhood. So that's why I'm very much not about performance, but about being behind all the titles behind all the status behind all the expectations that others have for them or that they have for themselves, based on what I just said, society and whatever.

So that's a very important part. And I believe that the men that come to me can somehow sense that. I mean, I do say it, you know, when I write bio on my LinkedIn, it does say it's not about performance, it's about being.

So they already kind of should have an idea. But I believe that my presence already gives them an idea that this is not about performance.

[Angela Thomas]

You guys, you should actually feel my, my ghost bombs, because Anna is transporting such a great energy. It's just like comes to me so much. I don't know if you can feel it over there.

But I'm so happy to have you on this soul deep diving podcast here with me. You bring so much value. Thank you.

When it comes to finding out if something is misaligned, something is going wrong here, cannot scale because of X, Y, Z, I don't know. What are the five signs that you outline to the person that you would suggest to look after first?

[Anna Thiel]

So many times guys come if they come with a specific challenge, I'd like to call it. Usually it's not that it'll be something else that we'll find out along the journey. So that to just answer the question before, and then the five things to look at when scaling is not working or when the business is stagnating.

Yeah. Well, firstly, they would have to be aware that they have to look at themselves, because it's about themselves and their presence and how they are more than strategy and, and all those things that they implement. Because if they are running a business, they're always the leader that others look up to.

And being a leader, I mean, a lot of people have different ideas of what it takes to be a leader. So it's always for the person to see, okay, how am I leading myself first before I can lead anybody else? Because why should I follow?

And I have a very strong one with that. And I frustrated lots of people with that. But why should I follow somebody?

I'm not a follower anyways, but let's say in like, in a relationship, why should I follow somebody that I can see is not following himself, leading himself properly? Yeah, why should I follow somebody's anything, when I can see they're not leading themselves properly?

[Angela Thomas]

Wow, that's strong.

[Anna Thiel]

Yeah, you know, so coming back to the business, that's actually something that's the first point that he the man that is in the CEO position or whatever, running the company should look at how am I leading these people as the end result, but how am I leading myself first? So you know, look at life, am I optimizing all the areas, those, that's the superficial stuff, but then you'd still have to go down as to, okay, why are you driven in the driven in the first place? Why are you running into burnout?

Why have you been in burnout? All those things are the source is always very much deeper than, or just working too much. Okay, why are you working so much?

What are you chasing? You know, so there's a lot of questions he would have to start asking himself.

[Angela Thomas]

Wow, very good.

[Anna Thiel]

Coming back to that questions being Yeah, the quality of life or determining the quality of life for business.

[Angela Thomas]

Yes. I mean, guys, you just should get in contact with Anna. We are putting all of the contacts that you want the people to reach out on in the show notes.

Yeah, I'm thanking you for such a insightful, insightful session. Yeah, I just wanted to know a little more. I know we already late, but just let me know what book was it that you read the last?

[Anna Thiel]

I think, because I do, I do a lot of different ones at different times. And some of them are paper books, and some of them are online. One of the books that I've kept into last was the seat of the soul.

[Angela Thomas]

Oh, okay. What was your best learning out of it?

[Anna Thiel]

Just to remember, it's really just always remembering, because that's what I'm all about. My work is all about remembering who they already are, because they're not broken. They don't need to be fixed.

They just need to remember who they are, and remove everything that they're not.

[Angela Thomas]

Powerful. Wow, what a good, outstanding last note on it. Thank you, Anna, for being here.

[Anna Thiel]

Thank you for having me.

[Angela Thomas]

Thank you for coming all the way from South Africa. I know you were here in Dubai. But to our audience, if you like this episode with Anna Thiel, just share it with somebody, with a man that maybe be interested, and you know who's stagnating.

So, I'm very happy if you subscribe to the channel, and give us a review. And until then, the next week, have a good day.